Interview by Carmen Teeple Hopkins
Janet Romero identifies as a queer, working class Latina woman activist/performer who has been a member of several community organizations including Latina Lingua and the Toronto Rape Crisis Centre (TRCC). More recently, she has been part of the Toronto Women’s Bookstore (TWB) community for over five years.
Has gender-based, race-based or other kinds of discrimination (class, sexuality, ability, etc) shaped your politics, your identity, or your relationship to organizing?
Discrimination is why I feel like I needed to break out of how I was being raised in mainstream society. From a very young age I remember being treated differently than my brothers who were three years younger than me. I remember always being angered by it, which influenced why I needed to follow this path. When I came to Canada, at the age of seven, racism surfaced. I remember being very aware of a racial and language divide. It came in terms of not looking like the other kids at school as well. To this day, my parents speak English, but it’s limited. A lot of my responsibility came to translate for them and what that meant.
The things that happened, I just didn’t have the language to describe racism to them, or issues around class or gender. It became this thing that was so visible to me. I didn’t have a way of communicating that, but it was definitely based on race and class. We lived in a working class neighbourhood, but there was the side that was more upper working class and those differences were noticeable in the way that kids would dress for picture day, for example. Where you notice, “okay, these people definitely have more money”.
My coming out was another time of my life when that pushed me even more into organizing, and the need to have a say in the way things happen, and however the organizing looks. So absolutely, all those identities or pieces that I identify with, dictated my activism, my organizing and the work that I do or where I choose to put my energies.
How have you seen group members avoid dealing with discrimination within groups? What have been some of the results?
Racism tends to come up more often, I think because it’s the most visible. I feel like we have more language to talk about race because it’s the thing that people most visibly see. When it comes to issues of class, for example, it goes so unnoticed because people will associate it with being about race or being about gender instead of really acknowledging that this is an issue about class. Even though all those issues come up, I feel like we don’t have enough of a dialogue about it and it gets dismissed. You know, that thing happened to you because you’re queer or a person of colour, not because there was a class issue. I feel like that is the hardest conversation to have because not enough of it gets talked about. I find that to be one of the more frustrating pieces.
I would say in terms of groups, things often get avoided with jokes. If we’re talking about race, specifically within communities of colour, where somehow it becomes okay to make fun of another group of colour because we are all people of colour, it gets seen as not really being racism, but it is. It’s challenging to tackle those things. Because we get lumped into a people of colour group, it’s assumed we can do no wrong onto each other. When I hear racist jokes in people of colour spaces, I feel like I don’t always know what to say but I have to say something. And then I know people respond with, “you always have a problem with this so of course you have a problem with this”…
This can be within a group of fairly progressive people. I’m always surprised when it comes from people that I think should know better. But I also come from a place of privilege because I have the language for it, I work from a place where I’m constantly being challenged to look at these things and have conversations about it. There’s always this piece of it, where I’m conscious about that piece of privilege that I carry with me having had the opportunity to study and read constantly, and to engage in different things within that dialogue, and through growing up in North America.
What are some techniques for dealing with internal discrimination within groups?
One of the things, I think as hard as it is, is dialogue among any group. At the TWB, we have tried to incorporate this on a daily basis; we have discussions around, for example, the kind of books that we carry. And to incorporate, if possible, (because financially it can be difficult to do), anti-oppression training. To make sure that the person who’s doing it is the right person is another challenge in that kind of work. I feel like anti-oppression work can often become very therapeutic for people involved, and it loses its value in terms of it being an anti-oppression tool. For example, we talk about how oppression affects us, and in some ways can have a more proactive approach to it, taking it further than just a discussion that happens within a workshop of 10 people.
How would you take that further within a group? If a group had an anti-oppression training session, how would this group maintain this type of training through its existence?
More than one training is important, but I think that as far as the training, [it is also important] to ask for guidelines to get ideas on how to take it further. This could be anything from having a list of readings, for example, that the group is going to commit to doing every month.
I’ve been part of groups where checking-in is a very important thing, and not just the kind of checking where you say, “I’m fine”. But a check-in that is truly about what you’re bringing to that space at that point. So if you just had a really shitty thing happen to you for example, and what you’re bringing to the group, in that moment, is the only thing you can really think of so you’re not thinking about the meeting. I think check-ins open up the dialogue for conversations around anti-oppression. To just to be able to come to a space and say, “I’m actually not ok, I need to be here today but this thing happened to me today so my brain is not there”. Then maybe that can become part of a larger discussion.
[Another thing that I find within that,] especially when you’re working within a group whose mandate is so politically heavy, is that it’s also important to take that out and do something fun, so that you actually get to know each other outside of that political piece that you do together. So it can be beneficial if you go to the park together and play on the swings, or you go for a walk, or you all have food together. Because I feel like it can get so heavy, or that people burn-out, or that people don’t come back, because they know that the next time you meet it’s going to be the same kind of heavy.
I think fun makes a big difference in the morale. Ultimately that’s the concern for a lot of folks, just the morale of the group. If it’s not fun, then it just makes the work so much harder. And the work is already very difficult. If we’re only doing that, then we’re going to burn-out.
Do you think that discrimination coming from outside of the group can affect internal dynamics of the group? If so, can you give an example of how that’s impacted an organization?
Absolutely. I think that all people that have come into activism or organizing in any kind of way come from a place where they have experienced discrimination. Discrimination inevitably filters into the group, either because you bring it as an individual, or because it’s something that is happening in the world–we’re not outside of that. We’re a part of those things, so I think that at some point it’s inevitable [for] things that are more pronounced, that are happening within the world, to affect the group. Not everyone is going to be affected evenly and those that are more affected will feel it quite differently than those that are just looking on. And even though it can be argued who is affected more by it, it will affect the whole group. So whether it affects my personal relationship with one person within the group, or whether it affects everyone, if it affects my relationship with one person, it will affect everyone in the group, even though it more directly affects the two of us. Everyone else to some degree is witnessing that that’s happening within the larger dynamics of the group.
The Toronto Women’s Bookstore is not only a bookstore, but an organization committed to dealing with internal power dynamics and oppressions.
For example, the TWB still gets calls around the Israel/Palestine issue; people ask us where we stand politically. That is a perfect example of something that is outside, that impacts the organization. Even though it’s something that’s happening outside, people who are part of the TWB vary on the spectrum of where they stand on the issue. We’ve lost customers, but we’ve also gained customers, and have gained a population of people who maybe before didn’t know what the TWB stands for and I think in some ways this has given people an opportunity to partake in a political and active action that is not so obvious.
What advice would you give to newly forming organizations to create a positive and strong internal group dynamic?
Anti-oppression training, as I mentioned, would be ideal. It would also be useful to maybe begin with a list of readings or things that you can read together that speaks to the idea of what the group is around anti-oppression and around other issues that are covered with that. It’s not about having the answer, but to even just have a conversation about the fact that when difficult things come up, we will talk about it. And we may not necessarily have the script of what that conversation is going to look like, but that people are committed to having it, in a way that is not attacking, but in a way that will invite the other person to talk back instead of just silencing.
I also think self-reflection is really important and key, instead of just looking at what everyone else is doing wrong and not look at how you also play into that and may contribute to some of the difficulties.
It seems that if you also start with an anti-oppression training, there’s an acknowledgement in the beginning that certain dynamics may arise within the group but that there’s an initial acknowledgement that this could happen amongst us, as “Lefty” people, and we need to be very cautious about how to do it.
What advice would you give to individuals beginning to work in activist groups, in terms of things to keep in mind or how to pay attention to internal dynamics?
I think that whatever group that you’re approaching, make sure it’s something you genuinely want to know more about, not because someone else is there that you like. Also, that you recognize that your time is up and when to move on. There are times where it ends up being one person’s vision who guides the group and that if you were to leave, the group would not fall apart. I think that piece of constant mentorship is important.
I think it’s something we really need to pay more attention to, in terms of how more experienced activists can really train people because I believe that in political work, you have to be committed and dedicated, but that there is a really schooling and education in itself in terms of how to do it and participate within groups.
I’ve seen that happen with so many groups, there’s someone who just comes and leads in a way that is very dynamic and just gets people on it, and that person leaves and the group is done. Meanwhile, there were other people in the group doing really great things too, but we didn’t really get a chance to see. For those who are leading, they have a responsibility to bring other people on that journey with them and be open to listening to what they have to say. It’s also a question of whether people are allowed to play different roles and that we all do this, we fall into a specific role within any particular group, and how easy it is for us to play another role? Often, it’s really difficult. That’s where it can fall apart … moving around and being conscious of that so that we don’t get too comfortable. And if one person is more comfortable doing one thing than another, maybe two people can work at it together so that it’s less intimidating.
What is the importance of paying attention to internal dynamics within political organizations?
It can make or break any organization. I think it can have a really negative impact if we don’t pay attention. Things will just happen and people will say, “I don’t know how that happened”. Meanwhile, the situation has been brewing for a year and we haven’t seen the warning signs. Sometimes in the initial discussion, it can be very scary. I really appreciate when someone says, “I know that something needs to be done, but I don’t really know what that is”. And for me, that’s better than not saying anything at all. And you’re not saying that you have the answers, but you’re inviting other people to think about it with you.
Do you have any concluding thoughts or comments?
… I think it’s really important to stop responding from a place of being irritated, but instead, to think about how it might look if you respond from a place of love. I remember for a while being irritated again and again but if I actually approach something from a place of love, it’s a completely different situation. I want to live my place in the world positively … so if I approach something from a place of love, then I feel that I am doing just that. The answer might not always be there, but I feel like I can at least challenge myself to look at it from that place … what’s most challenging is reacting to a difficult situation with, “how do I respond from a place of love when you’re annoying, irritating, inappropriate and a sexist pig? Where’s the love in that situation?” It doesn’t always work, but it’s a good way to look at situations.
Janet, thank-you very much.
No problem, thank-you.